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Requested move 1 May 2025

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2025 Israel fires → 2025 Israel–West Bank fires (proposal switched on 22:42, 02 May 2025) Fires are not limited to internationally recognized Israel, affected areas include Israel and the West Bank (Palestine)- the article currently mentions Mevo Horon, Ma'ale Adumim, and Jerusalem itself. Here are three sources used in the article which mention fires and extensive damage in Canada Park (which is fully within the occupied West Bank) i24, The Times of Israel, The Jerusalem Post. It is even described as one of 6 locations where it is most active by Israeli authorities (see i24 and JPost). Plus, the article currently states the starting point was "between Eshtaol and Latrun", this area includes the West Bank and the Latrun salient, so it is possible the fire started within Palestine. But, the fires are (for now) centered around Jerusalem-something which is true no matter where we or the reader draw the border. As this event is new and ongoing, I don't think it has a WP:COMMON NAME, so I think we should apply (as being applied currently) When, Where, What per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events). I think keeping it "Israel" has POV implications which are best to avoid. I am open to alternatives which encompass both Israel and Palestine. Mason7512 (talk) 00:15, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the initial proposal was 2025 Israel fires → 2025 Jerusalem fires, which was switched to the current proposal at 22:42 on 02 May 2025. (This note is meant to fix this move request for the RMCD bot.) P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 03:15, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
the fires originally started in Israel, then spread to Jerusalem. it started first in Eshtaol, Israel. furthermore, Israel is responding to the spread of the fire and not the PLO. thus the title is correct.
Both Eshtaol and Latrun are Israeli territories. so no, they didn't start in "Palestine" as you imply. it started in Israel. CViB (talk) 00:56, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I never said it started in Palestine I said it "is possible the fire started within Palestine" because the article at the time of my move request stated that the original fire on the 30th "began between Eshtaol and Latrun" and Latrun, contrary to your personal belief which you stated as fact, is disputed territory as a part of the occupied West Bank. This dispute is a part of the reason I believe it should be moved in the first place, as my opening sentence stated, the "Fires are not limited to internationally recognized Israel". And wherever it started, it has occurred in and effected both countries (as defined by the internationally recognized 1967 borders). Given the effected parts of Palestine are claimed by Israel and the sensitivity of this issue, I believe this title should be changed as to not be interpreted as an endorsement of/agreement with said claims. Mason7512 (talk) 01:19, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
it still didnt.
Israel is handling the fire. not Palestine. Aid is being sent to Israel. not Palestine. The Fire is Affecting Israel manly Tel Aviv. Not East Jerusalem. and on it goes. CViB (talk) 01:46, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It does not matter who is handling the fire or whom aid is being sent to; in the naming convention of When, Where, What, Where refers to the location of the event, not government involvement. Israel is handling the fire within Israel and the West Bank. Aid is being sent to the Israeli government to use in Israel and illegal settlements in the West Bank. Mason7512 (talk) 20:11, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Mason7512 there's no fires in the west bank Someonefighter (talk) 20:16, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The article says there are:
  • " Israeli authorities identified Neve Shalom as the epicenter of the fire and identified five other major points: Highway 3, Canada Park, Mesilat Zion, Harel, and Ramat Beit Shemesh."
  • " Fires also burned on a hillside near the city of Modi'in, as well as around decommissioned tanks at the Yad La-Shiryon Armored Corps Memorial Site and Museum in Latrun."
Mason7512 (talk) 20:31, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
are any of these in the west bank? Someonefighter (talk) 22:22, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
De facto they are Israeli territory, de jure they are beyond the Green Line. Eitan Drutman (talk) 22:30, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
aka occupied territories/west bank Someonefighter (talk) 22:34, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
From international perspective / In international eyes, yes. Eitan Drutman (talk) 22:46, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Eitan Drutman (talk) 11:28, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
And confirm. Eitan Drutman (talk) 11:29, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Look at the map. The fires on April 30 are limited to Israel proper. I removed Palestine and Judean mountains, since there were also fires in the north and near ashkelon. The fires also occured far from Jerusalem. The map: https://mobile.mako.co.il/nexter-news/Article-8665b62e1a68691026.htm Someonefighter (talk) 07:46, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The map you linked clearly shows that there are fires within the West Bank. I agree that, based on this map, "2025 Jerusalem fires" is not the best title, but neither is "2025 Israel fires". Also, fires also being in the north/ ashkelon does not justify the removal of Palestine as a location; it does not change that fires were in the West Bank. Mason7512 (talk) 20:17, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
you are referring to the fires in Gush Etzion. however, the map shows the history of fires as well. If you look it up, you see there weren't any fires there recently (at least, not within the scope of the article). Same goes to the two fires you see in jerusalem that are technically in the west bank. the wildfires did not reach jerusalem the city. however you can could see the fires in the north and near gaza in the beginning of the event. I should have archived it. you can check the fires (in the north) out here [1] (for some reason i couldnt find english coverage) .
after closer inspection, it seems the map is only reliable (for the scope of this article) as a map of live fires, and not for locations of eruption in general. it should be replaced as a source, and in my opinion it should be removed from external links as well
Sorry for citing it in the first place, I shouldn't have
So unless you find a source saying it also occured in the west bank, I think it should remain 2025 israel fires. if you do find a source saying fires were in the west bank, I will support a move to something like "2025 israel/palestine fires" or any other title listing the two countries.
Thank you for your help improving the article! and sorry for any trouble caused by this map Someonefighter (talk) 22:04, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's okay. Here are three sources used in the article which mention fires and extensive damage in Canada Park (which is fully within the occupied West Bank) i24, The Times of Israel, The Jerusalem Post. It is even described as one of 6 locations where it is most active by Israeli authorities (see i24 and JPost). Mason7512 (talk) 22:21, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
very well, changing to Support of a move. However I am still a hestiating a bit as to what to rename the article to, since it is at the very edge of the west bank, in the little blob. Nevertheless it is in the west bank, therefore my vote is in favor a move (not this one though, since this we both agreed jerusalem fires is inaccurate) Someonefighter (talk) 22:32, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps 2025 Israel-West Bank fires or 2025 Israel-West Bank wildfires? If nobody objects to this being the alternative, I can replace the currently proposed "Jerusalem" title with it. Mason7512 (talk) 23:12, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yea I think if no one can propose an alternative this should be the title. We can delete this vote then and start a new one Someonefighter (talk) 04:48, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
For clarity, I prefer 2025 Israel–West Bank wildfires to avoid any misconceptions EvansHallBear (talk) 06:39, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's right to do so. The fires were mainly in Israel proper; just a tiny bit of them were in disputed area beyond the Green Line, yet still under complete Israeli control. Eitan Drutman (talk) 11:24, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
2025 Jerusalem hills wildfires could be an appropriate alternative. Eitan Drutman (talk) 11:29, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I would support this proposal as well. EvansHallBear (talk) 22:34, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
So I guess we need @Mason7512's and @Someonefighter's support as well so that will be the chosen option Eitan Drutman (talk) 23:12, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I see no problem with it. It appears to have larger support, so support (my only concern would be location, are the Jersaluem hills the primary location? its hard to find a good source to confirm this like a non-live map or list) Mason7512 (talk) 00:19, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is. That was the main area of the fires, and it was the common refer to the fires on the news, especially in Israel itself. Eitan Drutman (talk) 07:00, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Delete a Wikipedia page on the same topic

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When the fire began, I created an article on the fire. Now it's just being a second article on the exact same topic like this one, as this one is the main one. Please delete the second article to avoid duplication. Eitan Drutman (talk) 15:39, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The link to the second page: 2025 Jerusalem wildfires Eitan Drutman (talk) 15:39, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
A merge has been suggested. Eitan Drutman (talk) 21:06, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
A merge in to this article would be optimal Someonefighter (talk) 22:41, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I agree Eitan Drutman (talk) 22:47, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
yes, merge Hila Livne (talk) 19:33, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
👍 Eitan Drutman (talk) 22:54, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Update: Eitan Drutman (talk) 17:01, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The said article now redirects to this one. Eitan Drutman (talk) 17:02, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevant line

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The line "Additionally on April 23, Israeli settlers set fire to Palestinian homes and livestock pens in Bardala in the northern area of the West Bank." is irrelevant to the background and the topic itself at all. Eitan Drutman (talk) 21:19, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It should be removed. Eitan Drutman (talk) 21:19, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Though it's a little controversial as a topic, so I thought it will be best to mention it here before taking action... Eitan Drutman (talk) 21:20, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
it is irrelevant to the events. remove Someonefighter (talk) 22:04, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Removed it. Eitan Drutman (talk) 22:09, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Someone has brought it back... Eitan Drutman (talk) 17:10, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I removed it again. Eitan Drutman (talk) 17:10, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please discuss it here before adding it back again. Eitan Drutman (talk) 17:11, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Why are the other fires from the preceding days mentioned? Because they provide context for the recent fire conditions and history. There is no difference in the inclusion reasoning for this one. Is there a reason you think that this fire is irrelevant, but the other ones on the same day are? Is it the nature of the fires' origin? (as in this one was arson, as opposed to unidentified cause/natural) Mason7512 (talk) 21:52, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
They are connected only because they both occured in the same area and in a relatievly close time to one another... That's the only reason I brought it up in the background, otherwise I wouldn't. Eitan Drutman (talk) 21:59, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If the fire you're mentioning has a direct connection to the main one this article referes to, you are more than welcomed to explain it and then add it back. If it's not, please stop adding it. Eitan Drutman (talk) 22:03, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear, I did not add the content nor reinstate it; I do not know their reasoning. But, your reasoning for the exclusion based on location seems apt based on what is currently included. Mason7512 (talk) 00:15, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The exclusion of the sentence based on location does not seem apt, as the fire reportedly set by settlers was in the West Bank while the lead of the article indicates - "On 30 April 2025, Israel and the Israeli-occupied West Bank experienced major fires in more than 100 different locations through the Judean Mountains area." Are you basing the decision on the mileage between the two fires? Leaky.Solar (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Based on what I know, the fire set by the settlers wasn't in the area of the main fires. Therefore, there is no connection between them at all. If they were actually in the same region, then okay, add it back. If not, just don't. Eitan Drutman (talk) 21:24, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I was basing it on the location of the Jerusalem hills vs. the settler arson. As I have stated in other comments on the talk page, I have had trouble finding any maps or lists which include all the locations of the fires; but from what I understand they are/were concentrated in that region. I qualified that the exclusion is apt with if the determination of what previous fires are added is based on being in the same specific area as the fires (which based on the current contents, seems to be). I prefer its inclusion, but recognize that the background would ideally be expanded to add it.Mason7512 (talk) 22:10, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Tree planting inclusion in Background

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@Chomik1129 deleted a paragraph from the background section detailing tree planting by the Jewish National Fund and its impact on fire vulnerability/conditions. Your edit summary read: "removed background paragraph with no sources relating it to these fires" Which I understand, and agree with: some relation to the fires should be established with sources. I searched and have gathered sources I could find which make this connection with the current fires:

Would you agree that these articles justify putting some information about the tree planting back in the article? I acknowledge they are mostly bias, but I think they are still useful for establishing a connection without original research. I wanted to check on the talk page before adding it to avoid any edit warring/communication via edit summaries.

(To be clear: they would be cited along with sources not mentioning the current fires which are less bias and have more information, but these would establish sources making the connection) Mason7512 (talk) 00:06, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would be fine with a brief mention of it in the background section with these sources to establish connection with the recent fires (although most of them seem biased). The paragraph I removed gave undue weight to the issue since it's only mentioned by a few sources covering these fires, so it should probably be trimmed to one or two sentences. It should also be mentioned that the claim that non-native trees contributed to the fires is unconfirmed as mentioned by the Roya News source you brought up.
The content can also be added to Environmental issues in Israel with a see also hatnote linking there. Chomik! (talk?) 00:38, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree that it should be trimmed, I was planning on adding 1–3 sentences. I also agree that no statements should state a link/causal relationship as fact. I didn't know this issue wasn't in Environmental issues in Israel, thanks for pointing it out. Mason7512 (talk) 00:42, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unsure about why there is a need for articles in the background section to be "related" to the article over all needs to be the litmus to include the planting of pine trees in the background section. Other articles such as Deportation in the second presidency of Donald Trump, or Child abductions in the Russo-Ukrainian War have background/history section which pull historical information and have sources backdated to show relevant information. Leaky.Solar (talk) 19:10, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
WP:No original research states that information must come from sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, unless it would be original research. Chomik! (talk?) 20:14, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Original research may have been how it was written but from Jewish National Funds own Wikipedia page the concern about fire and non native planting are pointed out. Specifically the use of "non-native pine trees which are unsuited to the climate" and criticism from "The Union for Environmental Defense has criticized the fund's forestry practices for "overreliance on highly flammable pine trees" Leaky.Solar (talk) 20:56, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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